Curse

Robbins · Dec 31, 2008, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Thank you MercenaryKnight for your help. Don't know if you had a chance to read my post #155 in this thread but I run with only 3 hero's cause I run a hh with just me and its hard to find people who are doing the same stuff. Unless if you want to add me to your friends list then maybe I can run with you if your friend is busy or run with him if you are busy. Also I was wondering if you could post your 3 hero build and maybe talk a little about how you might change it for a monk primary. I changed my discord support prot build because Abedeus was right and now its [build=;OANDUslfSxMoBKgLCJg1DBEVVA] but I still think there might be better skills for slots 4 and 5. What do you think? On my Hex/Condition necro I looked at running [Suffering] instead of [Shadow of Fear] but I thought the 10 e vs. 15 e was worth it. What do you think about those two skills? But it looks to me like if it comes down to one of the 3 [weaken armor] is even better. Though when I read your last post it seems like if you run hh you take 2 necro's with curses so i'm really curious to see your bars cause i would be concerned about spreading skills out over 4 attributes. What are your thoughts there if you run 4 attributes that is? Also right now I am trying to do Destruction's Depths and that is giving me some trouble so I was wondering if you had any specific advice for that Quest. Thanks again. And for anyone else I really think you should try these [Discord] build and get into this conversation cause there are places where for me it works better than Sabway (and Sabway is really good). And anyone else please comment on your thoughts. It would be really cool if Darkside and DarkSpirit would get into this conversation cause your discord commentary was helpful in me getting this far. Thanks all again.

cyber88 · Dec 31, 2008, 02:15 AM // 02:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbins

I've seen some people using [weaken armor] in their discord builds. Do all enemies have armor?

Also, please some people who have been running discord builds post them and join the discussion about which hexes and conditions to use and why. Also what are reasons to prefer the ritualist healing skills to the monk ones? Thank you.

Weaken Armor acts like more of a quick casting & recharging backup condition to be spam on your target to fuel discord. In any case, the mobs in HM have a lot of armor (even their monks) so this definately has some sort of other uses.

For my discord builds, I tend to use the hexes & conditions that is fast casting (usually 1s or less) & fast recharging. The energy these skills use is not important as things die rather quickly & e-management thru soul reaping. I did notice that my heroes will not respam the same hex on the same target if it is not dead by the time the hex is recharged

For heals, my reasoning is the same as Sab. Rit healing skills revolves around having spirits while monk healing skills revolves around divine favor. If the hero is not a primary monk, you will automatically lose out on the divine favor passive heal.

Forgotton200 · Dec 31, 2008, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxSanctusxX

Well here is what i run. Please note that Im am a necro myself, so it basically is a 4 man discord way.
[build=Player;OAhkUsG4xGOUZgdwNYMznwuDbQyF]
[build=Healer;OAhjUoGYIPxsMm0cyNMHnV1kLA]
[build=Minion Master;OAhCUsxUMTVwRFewiQCYVVyF]
[build=Prot;OANEUqht88EzurCk6xMZ6HQqqA]
And as henchmen
Healer
Warrior
Mesmer(eotn)/Hexer
Random

PS. Builds show up in PvP version, Dont know how to change that so you'll have to do it with this.

How does this look? Anyway it can be improved? I was planning on doing something similar to this. I rather take necrosis than discord on the player bar, replacing it with another hex or the pve skills.

daze · Dec 31, 2008, 05:52 AM // 05:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forgotton200

How does this look? Anyway it can be improved? I was planning on doing something similar to this. I rather take necrosis than discord on the player bar, replacing it with another hex or the pve skills.

That is a great point.. If you are playing a necro primary character then [necrosis] is really a better bet than [discord] just for the simple fact that [[necrosis] doesnt take up an elite, it only needs a hex OR condition primer, and it does the same damn thing give or take 10 damage depending on how much you usually spec to death magic.

I mean sure, you could pretty easily use [discord][necrosis] just for the double spike effect and it would work, but you also are able to take a more fun elite like [spiteful spirit] or even... ahem [assassins promise] (only if you are packing lots of high recharge time spells)

But if i was running a necro primary using discordway, i would just handle ALL of the conditions and hexes on my bar and make the heroes purely support. (maybe one condition OR hex per hero)
id probably just run a classic curser build ([signet of corruption][necrosis][spiteful spirit][enfeebling blood][weaken armor][shadow of fear][barbs][rip enchantment])

Forgotton200 · Dec 31, 2008, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

That is a great point.. If you are playing a necro primary character then [necrosis] is really a better bet than [discord] just for the simple fact that [[necrosis] doesnt take up an elite, it only needs a hex OR condition primer, and it does the same damn thing give or take 10 damage depending on how much you usually spec to death magic.

I mean sure, you could pretty easily use [discord][necrosis] just for the double spike effect and it would work, but you also are able to take a more fun elite like [spiteful spirit] or even... ahem [assassins promise] (only if you are packing lots of high recharge time spells)

But if i was running a necro primary using discordway, i would just handle ALL of the conditions and hexes on my bar and make the heroes purely support. (maybe one condition OR hex per hero)

I see, thanks for the reply. My EoTN rank isn't high yet but I am planning on switching [necrosis] out for the EoTN pve skill when I start working on it and use the [assassins promise] instead. For now, I'll go with [necrosis][spiteful spirit], maybe [arcane echo] and rest of the bar is condition/hexes.

This is what I'm using for the 6 man party.

[build=Minion ;OANDUsldSxMHVUBoBNgTfGNVVA]
[build=Prot;OANDUqhPTxMKgCE3V1DzEBEVVA]
[build=Healer;OAhjUwGW4SxMZMSTTOUMjTKgJXA]

I don't think this even near optimal.

MercenaryKnight · Dec 31, 2008, 06:17 AM // 06:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbins

Thank you MercenaryKnight for your help. Don't know if you had a chance to read my post #155 in this thread but I run with only 3 hero's cause I run a hh with just me and its hard to find people who are doing the same stuff. Unless if you want to add me to your friends list then maybe I can run with you if your friend is busy or run with him if you are busy. Also I was wondering if you could post your 3 hero build and maybe talk a little about how you might change it for a monk primary. I changed my discord support prot build because Abedeus was right and now its [build=;OANDUslfSxMoBKgLCJg1DBEVVA] but I still think there might be better skills for slots 4 and 5. What do you think? On my Hex/Condition necro I looked at running [Suffering] instead of [Shadow of Fear] but I thought the 10 e vs. 15 e was worth it. What do you think about those two skills? But it looks to me like if it comes down to one of the 3 [weaken armor] is even better. Though when I read your last post it seems like if you run hh you take 2 necro's with curses so i'm really curious to see your bars cause i would be concerned about spreading skills out over 4 attributes. What are your thoughts there if you run 4 attributes that is? Also right now I am trying to do Destruction's Depths and that is giving me some trouble so I was wondering if you had any specific advice for that Quest. Thanks again. And for anyone else I really think you should try these [Discord] build and get into this conversation cause there are places where for me it works better than Sabway (and Sabway is really good). And anyone else please comment on your thoughts. It would be really cool if Darkside and DarkSpirit would get into this conversation cause your discord commentary was helpful in me getting this far. Thanks all again.

For me I go against the golden rules most follow, even with h/h I usually only take my same 3 builds. 1 n/rt with 12 restoration and heals, 1 curser with a res and 1 minion bomber with protective spirit, aegis and dwayna's sorrow (think 9 protection 5 heal 12-16 death and left over in soul reaping).

I don't think conditions are that much of a problem, but that's generally because I use 6 discord heroes more often than hero/hench. I prefer to just let the n/rt healers with mend body and soul to cure conditions when you have a spirit around.

I just generally don't like relying on only monk hench and just got used to having my n/rt healer. My curses runs enfeebling blood and shadow of fear(shadow of fear is usually a better spell even if it is more energy just for survivability imo) I think I added barbs as well for bosses or to help with minions and physicals. I think it was like 10 curses, 12 death rest soul reaping.

I am sure if you search through the thread (probably in the middle 3-5 pages
you'll find dazed or someone elses builds as well as my poorly not optemized one).

daze · Dec 31, 2008, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forgotton200

I see, thanks for the reply. My EoTN rank isn't high yet but I am planning on switching [necrosis] out for the EoTN pve skill when I start working on it and use the [assassins promise] instead. For now, I'll go with [necrosis][spiteful spirit], maybe [arcane echo] and rest of the bar is condition/hexes.

or just for shits and giggles you could go [assassins promise][signet of corruption][necrosis][finish him][enfeebling blood][rip enchantment][barbs][suffering]
just because [[assassins promise] + Soul reaping = mega energy management
and even better [assassins promise] + [signet of [email protected]] + Soul reaping + Discord team = ridiculous energy management

Forgotton200 · Dec 31, 2008, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

or just for shits and giggles you could go [assassins promise][signet of corruption][necrosis][finish him][enfeebling blood][rip enchantment][barbs][suffering]
just because [[assassins promise] + Soul reaping = mega energy management
and even better [assassins promise] + [signet of [email protected]] + Soul reaping + Discord team = ridiculous energy management

Just soul reaping and with my minion/enemy dieing, I never even came close to losing all my energy yet so I think those are excessive. My bar would probably look like what you posted but using the [spiteful spirit] and [arcane echo] instead. Also, the [pain inverter] for the elementalist. I only started using the Discord necros 2 or 3 weeks ago, and this is what I came up with:

6 man version:
[build=Minion ;OANDUsldSxMHVUBoBNgTfGNVVA]
[build=Prot;OANDUqhPTxMKgCE3V1DzEBEVVA]
[build=Healer;OAhjUwGW4SxMZMSTTOUMjTKgJXA]

From my minion and prot necro, I was thinking of removing skills to add the [death pact signet]. Maybe I'll take it out the [putrid bile] from prot and [dwayna's sorrow] to add it.

daze · Dec 31, 2008, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

I am sure if you search through the thread (probably in the middle 3-5 pages
you'll find dazed or someone elses builds as well as my poorly not optemized one).

The 6 hero build IMO is about as balanced as a 6 hero build can be, (ill search for it and re post it here to make it easy). Naturally you are able to swap out a couple skills out of personal preference. Like if you like [shadow of fear] over [meekness] or [barbs] over [mark of pain], but aside form minor tweaks my build handles any area with ease, whether the areas have tons of nasty hexes (FoW) or if the areas have tons of hex removal (Jade sea).
----------------
[build=Curser with shambling;OAhkUsG6hGGUMTVlColA70uzRVyF]
This build is Not Mandatory in a discord team so you can completely remove it if you are just running 3 heroes. Just make sure you can handle hexes and conditions on your bar. Otherwise you might be more comfortable swapping out [[meekness] for [[shadow of fear] and [[mark of pain] for [[barbs]
----------------
[build=Hex remove heal;OANDUrptSxMVVKgGNTftERgyEA]
I like this one a lot personally, it seems to take care of all my hex/condition removal needs plus you have [[dwaynas sorrow] which is good with >10 minions. When i go to FoW i swap out [discord] for [divert hexes] and i have No worries about hexes or conditions.
P.S. When i do swap out [discord] for [divert hexes] i do it on my protter and not my healer just because obviously he has the points spec to protection prayers. I only posted it here because im talking about hex removal here.
---------------
[build=Minion master;OABDQatmSxMVVVBoBLCKVJgdCA]
This is just a pure minion master which i have slotted in [[blood ritual] just for my own bar and only when i run a specific high energy costing build. You may want to remove it.
-----------------
[build=Prot with shambling;OANDUrpvSxMVVKgHVBE1D3VyEA]
Just like the description, all this is is a protter with minions. [[animate shambling horror] and [[putrid bile] for hex/condition application. BTW [[putrid bile] is a great skill to put on any [[discord] hero that can fit it because it is a nice hex and death magic.
-----------------
[build=Restore life;OAhjUoGYIPxsqaGbcKNHmTuLGA]
Classic restoration hero with [[life] and [[weapon of warding]. not much to say here.
-----------------
[build=Restore recovery;OAhjUoGYIPxsqKxjaLNHmTuLGA]
This is my restoration hero with [[recovery] and [[vengeful weapon] its nice to have 2 spirits on the field for [[mend body and soul], but other than that, if you are running a 3 hero build you can just kick this hero and add a healer hench or something.
------------------

Summary: When i run that build, it seems like im clearing everything in fast forward. It has tons of condition removal so you are able to back it down a bit. I honestly have never had a condition on me for longer than a couple seconds in any situation. between the 2 copies of [[mend body and soul], [[foul feast] and [[spotless soul]. Now that i think of it [[recovery] is probably a bad choice of spirits because conditions never get close to lasting their duration let alone a reduced duration. It may be a good idea to get rid of [[recovery] and add a different spirit. The only thing is the rest of the restoration spirits suck ball sack if [[recuperation] wasn't so dammed expensive for being a crappy regen spell, it might be a good idea to add it. You could always spec to channeling or something i guess or just dont worry about the second spirit and add [[soothing memories] (Sorry, it seems my summary has gone off on a tangent)

To make this a 3 hero build its easy. Remove the curser, remove the recovery N/Rt, and merge the minion master with one of the N/Mo heroes. Make sure that your build can handle hexes and conditions. If not then pepper in some around the N/Rt and the other N/Mo that is not merged with the MM.

Daesu · Dec 31, 2008, 07:54 AM // 07:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbins

Thank you MercenaryKnight for your help. Don't know if you had a chance to read my post #155 in this thread but I run with only 3 hero's cause I run a hh with just me and its hard to find people who are doing the same stuff. Unless if you want to add me to your friends list then maybe I can run with you if your friend is busy or run with him if you are busy. Also I was wondering if you could post your 3 hero build and maybe talk a little about how you might change it for a monk primary. I changed my discord support prot build because Abedeus was right and now its [build=;OANDUslfSxMoBKgLCJg1DBEVVA] but I still think there might be better skills for slots 4 and 5. What do you think? On my Hex/Condition necro I looked at running [Suffering] instead of [Shadow of Fear] but I thought the 10 e vs. 15 e was worth it. What do you think about those two skills? But it looks to me like if it comes down to one of the 3 [weaken armor] is even better. Though when I read your last post it seems like if you run hh you take 2 necro's with curses so i'm really curious to see your bars cause i would be concerned about spreading skills out over 4 attributes. What are your thoughts there if you run 4 attributes that is? Also right now I am trying to do Destruction's Depths and that is giving me some trouble so I was wondering if you had any specific advice for that Quest. Thanks again. And for anyone else I really think you should try these [Discord] build and get into this conversation cause there are places where for me it works better than Sabway (and Sabway is really good). And anyone else please comment on your thoughts. It would be really cool if Darkside and DarkSpirit would get into this conversation cause your discord commentary was helpful in me getting this far. Thanks all again.

Suffering is as a choice is "meh" to me as it is only an aoe degen. Shadow of Fear is more useful to keep your team alive at a cheaper energy cost.

A typical discordway build allows for an attribute spread without losing too much of your team's effectiveness. Since Discord has such a fast recharge and high damage, you dont need other damage skills on your necro but you only need to make sure that your target is hexed as well as inflicted with a condition.

The 5 main conditions from the necro skill line are weakness (from enfeebling blood/enfeeble), cracked armor (from weaken armor), disease (from rotting flesh and others), poison (from death nova), and bleeding (from rip enchantment, shamblings, and others).

Among these, disease and poison (and maybe bleeding) are easily inflicted from skills in the death magic line, which is the same attribute line as Discord anyway. The rest are from the curse line and you dont need a high level curse to make those specific condition curse skills like enfeebling blood and weaken armor to be effective since they have a short recharge and they last long enough at low levels.

For the hexes, you have 4 to choose from in death magic like putrid bile and many more effective hexes in the curse line which synergize well with minions like barbs and MoP. You also have popular curse debuff hexes like faintheartedness and shadow of fear, and punishment hexes like spiteful spirit and insiduous parasite.

So the main attribute lines you want to go for is curse and death magic and dont be afraid to spread your attributes across 3 or even 4 attribute lines if it makes sense to.

This means I can have skill bar like this for my discord curse necro for my typical caster character and it can still work well:

[N/Rt Curser/Healer pve;OAhkUoG4BGqTMrMgIsDNihp0kaD]

...with a restore healer like this:

[N/Rt Restore Healer pve;OAhjUoGYIPxM1wwcyJNrqjzkLA]

With 2 spirits, everytime Mend Body and Soul is cast, it removes 2 conditions plus a nice heal for only 5e and 3s recharge. And the restore healer has less of a chance to sac 17% hp everytime she uses Spirit Light without having to recast Life at least every 20s.

What you see in those bars are already 2 conditions (3 if you replace Rend Enchantments with Rip Enchantment) and 2 hexes. I still have Death Nova for yet another condition on my MM, Putrid Bile, and my caster characters usually bring some more hexes (e.g. Assassin Promise, Pain Inverter) and condition inflicting skills (e.g. YMLAD, FH).

As you can see, the heroes are already self sufficient in terms of heals, hexes and conditions for an effective discord team. My monk usually plays as a smite/protect for additional damage and extra protection to synergize better with the team. You can also bring hex removal on your monk, to add that capability to your team.

cyber88 · Dec 31, 2008, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Hmmzz...Nice discussion going on. I am not sure will there be a difference in performance if i switch out suffering for shadow of fear as this is what I am currently eunning. Energy is not the issue just the cast time difference. I just want to make things go boom faster. :P

Any1 with opinions on this? If the cast times makes little or no difference, shadow of fear is definately a better choice

Daesu · Dec 31, 2008, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyber88

Hmmzz...Nice discussion going on. I am not sure will there be a difference in performance if i switch out suffering for shadow of fear as this is what I am currently eunning. Energy is not the issue just the cast time difference. I just want to make things go boom faster. :P

Any1 with opinions on this? If the cast times makes little or no difference, shadow of fear is definately a better choice

The 1s casting time difference between the two skills is not a big deal in PvE, especially if you have HCT curse on the hero.

Considering the speed that you clear mobs with discordway, the -3 degen from suffering doesn't make much of a difference. Besides, isn't there a -10 degen cap? You already have 4 degen from aoe disease and 4 degen from aoe poison.

If you want to kill even faster, just bind the heroes's discord to keys and micro them. Discord is the main weapon, the rest the skills on the skill bar are there to either support discord or to help to keep the team alive.

cyber88 · Jan 01, 2009, 01:48 AM // 01:48

I see. Okies. I will do some testing. Thx for the feedback.

daze · Jan 01, 2009, 03:18 AM // 03:18

I m curious, would it really make that much of a difference to switch out my heroes weapons to 40/40 or something of the sort? Right now all my necro heroes have Kerrsh's Staff except for Olias who refuses to give up his Ghail's staff..

Daesu · Jan 01, 2009, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

I m curious, would it really make that much of a difference to switch out my heroes weapons to 40/40 or something of the sort? Right now all my necro heroes have Kerrsh's Staff except for Olias who refuses to give up his Ghail's staff..

From what I have observed, the equipment seem to make a difference for heroes similar to how they affect players.

For example, if you are using HCT/HCR healing spells equipment on your N/Mo healer, she becomes more reactive with her healing spells. Otherwise without them, her heals seem to have a noticable lag compared to when she has the HCT/HCR healing spells equipment.

Super Igor · Jan 03, 2009, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

I m curious, would it really make that much of a difference to switch out my heroes weapons to 40/40 or something of the sort? Right now all my necro heroes have Kerrsh's Staff except for Olias who refuses to give up his Ghail's staff..

To me 40/40 is useless unless you have n/rt's so you use it to recharge pwk faster when weapon effects cancel out with ashes anyway so at least you pull some use from them.

Other than that they cant weapon swap, so 40/40 has little use. Kepp their staffs or give them defensive sets which actually make some kind of difference giving more hp and armor.

Daesu · Jan 03, 2009, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

To me 40/40 is useless unless you have n/rt's so you use it to recharge pwk faster when weapon effects cancel out with ashes anyway so at least you pull some use from them.

Other than that they cant weapon swap, so 40/40 has little use. Kepp their staffs or give them defensive sets which actually make some kind of difference giving more hp and armor.

Yes good point on the item spells. Weapon mods are not 100% useless because they do drop Pwk sometimes, but when an item spell is in effect the weapon mods may not matter on the hero. This can still be worked around by tweaking the build. I should replace pwk for a spirit light on my curse necro.

Forgotton200 · Jan 03, 2009, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

[build prof=N/Rt box][discord][animate bone minions][putrid bile][spirit light][protective was kaolai][mend body and soul][recovery][flesh of my flesh][/build]
[build prof=N/Rt box][discord][enfeebling blood][shadow of fear][rip enchantment][protective was kaolai][mend body and soul][life][flesh of my flesh][/build]
[build prof=N/Mo box][discord][animate bone minions][putrid bile][death nova][dwayna's sorrow][aegis][protective spirit][cure hex][/build]
-It has never failed me, +24 armor on two of the guys, strong party-wide healing to power through degen and pressure, two restos allow lower restoration spec that means all of these guys have 14 spec discords, dwayna's sorow, hex removal, near immunity to conditions, sufficient prot.

I tried this discordway and it turned out very nice. The only thing I'm worried about is my heroes energy. All heroes are left with 0 energy after a fight. Maybe I spec'd it badly but I have it at 14 death magic, 10 restoration, 9 soul reaping on two necro and 12 on the other. Also. using all survivors on heroes. Even with bone minion and mob dieing, my heroes are left with little energy after the fight. I was thinking of replacing something with [signet of lost souls].

Since this is NM (started a new character), it's not too bad but in HM, would it last enough to not wipe? And for the melee profession who wants to actually use melee instead of calling, would changing the discord to SS, [weapon of warding], jagged (all 3 sabway's elite) build work? A friend using assassin wants to use [death blossom][moebius strike] instead of calling targets and letting heroes kill everything. Or would it be better to just go with sabway for his assassin instead of this?

daze · Jan 03, 2009, 02:59 PM // 14:59

[signet of lost souls] really should be stapled to every necro hero.
In a discord team, i look at [discord][signet of lost souls] as mandatory, then i build the support skills around them.

Robbins · Jan 04, 2009, 08:53 PM // 20:53

O.K. since my December 28th post this is what I've learned:

One of the best experiences was trying to kill the Chromatic Drakes in Battledepths while I was doing the quest Destructions Depths (see my question from my December 30th post). I tried it probably a dozen times with all different, for the non-critical damage slots, skills. I tried different rit builds and different healing/prot builds. The builds that kept me alive the longest, and a couple of times I actually killed the drakes with, were just [remove hex] [Protective Spirit] and [Aegis] on my support prot and [protective spirit] and [aegis] on the MM. The funniest part here is I eventually learned you don't have to fight the drakes at all just go around them.

So my MM build winds up the same:
[Discord MM;OANDUslfSxMVBoBKg4B1DBEVVA]
16 death, 10 soul, 9 prot, & blood stained boots
Woe Spreader - health = 570 e = 40
I carry blood of the master just because I’m lazy and don't want to rush from battle to battle so this keeps some of the minions alive usually

I tweaked my Hex/Condition Necro slightly carrying [weaken armor] instead of [shadow of fear] because of the 5 energy vs 10 and the 1 second cast vs 2 these skills aren't intended to do damage just to keep the condition on.
So that build winds up being:
[Discord Hex/Condition;OABDUshnS2BMixM1BfC1BVBVVA]
12 death, 10 soul, 11 curses, Woe Spreader - health = 630 e = 42
I still think conditions that don't require flesh are important

The Support/Prot necro got the most changes. [putrid explosion] was just a bad idea. One time my Hex/Condition necro died and I had no way to condition enemies so I added [Withering Aura] to this bar. It is a death magic skill so I still have only 3 attributes on this bar. Does anyone have any other ideas for a non-flesh required condition skill that won't require a 4th attribute. [spirit bond] got spammed too much so I replace it with [Remove Hex]. Though if anyone has a better idea for this slot I’m really interested. So this bar now looks like this:
[Discord Support/Prot;OANDUslfSxMoBKgNftE1DBEVVA]
12 death, 11 soul, 9 prot Prot staff with e +15 ench+20% H+30 HSR 20%
Health = 620 e =45

I run a basic HB build. Which is more detailed in post #155 above. Though I added a 3rd weapon combo which is a low basic shield/spear combo. And I never mentioned that I also carry a long bow sense I hh, sometimes I need a longer lure. I do hm hh. I've done some more title point farming and a couple more hm handbooks with these builds and they have worked great.

I would really like to see complete builds that other people are running and comments on these builds with comparisons. I'm also interested in how people consistently keep more than 8-15 minions up with builds that are close to these. We should keep this thread going unless someone who has tried these builds really thinks there are better builds for a Monk to run with hh in hm.